In the last three years, Max Winkler has become almost synonymous with expansion Ryan Murphy TV portfolio. The indie filmmaker and TV director helmed episodes of six different Murphy productions during this short run, the latest addressing most of it of FXs Grotesquery and an essential episode of Monsters: The Lyle And Eric Menendez Story for Netflix.

Winkler is already working on their next collaboration. He will serve as director and executive producer on the yet-to-be-titled third installment Monster franchise, which focuses on 1950s serial killer Ed Gein. The project isn’t just a reunion for Winkler, Murphy and co-creator Ian Brennan; Winkler was instrumental in bringing in another associate from the past: the series lead. Charlie Hunnam, who previously starred in Winkler’s 2019 boxing drama Jungleland, Gein plays. And Winkler is already pretty optimistic about how it stacks up.

“We’ve made enough films that no one has seen to tell you how good it feels to get a real-time reaction,” he says, “and if we do our job, people will watch it.”

Television is not new to Winkler. In between releasing a drumbeat of independent films, the 41-year-old filmmaker stepped in to direct series like The New Girl, Crazy ex-girlfriend, Brooklyn Nine Nine and Flirt. But approaching five episodes from the highly stylized Grotesquery arguably gave Winkler the most creative freedom in the medium to date – even shooting 15 minutes a one shot episode.

During a recent break from production, Winkler, son of Hollywood royalty Henry Winkler, talked about his recent choices, the pains facing independent film today, and what he and his cohorts have planned for the next installment of the movie. Monster.

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Since you’re working on this right now, I should probably ask you how Ed Gein became the subject of the next season of Monster.

When Ryan first told me and Charlie about it, he said it all came down to this guy. He was the first serial killer, he kind of helped coin the term. He conjured up a very quiet character study about this guy, and Charlie and I were immediately into it. I’m very grateful to be in this with Charlie, who is one of my favorite actors.

This is a huge departure for the franchise, both in terms of time period and public awareness of the subject matter.

There is this movie with William Wyler, The best years of our livesthis really shows the shocked experience of what it felt like to be a human being after the atomic bomb was dropped. Everything looked great on the outside. Advertisements for vacuum cleaners or bologna were all glitz and glam, but there was a real mental health crisis. People didn’t know how to talk about it or diagnose it. What I loved about what Ryan did with The Menendez Brothers was the question he asked the audience. The first was only obvious. Jeffrey Dahmer is the monster. With the Menendez Brothers, it took a The Rashomon perspective. The monster is the children? Is it a privilege? Is it Jose Menendez? is it kitty So I will say that this one further turns perspective into a larger exercise in asking who the real monsters are. And it will look different, just by the nature of the light. It’s rural Wisconsin in the 1950s without electricity.

Five or six years ago, it had become very common for a director to tackle every episode of a miniseries. We’re seeing less and less of it. Are you directing all of this?

No, and I don’t know how I do it. I’ve never been able to do it. Even with GrotesqueryI did five out of 10. I don’t know how people do it and training

I spoke with Gus Van Sant earlier this year and he mentioned that he really wants to direct them all Sorcery. Ultimately, it was too demanding, so you and Jennifer Lynch stepped in to direct two of the episodes.

Gus is one of my favorite directors of all time, so I would go sit on the set when Gus was directing. I felt like I won some kind of competition. During my episode, which was this kind of fever dream My dinner with Andre the situation between James Baldwin and Truman Capote, I was just really nervous. I was worried I’d drop Gus, because I normally rip him off as much as I can. He is a genius.

You’ve been marinating in a lot of dark material lately. How are you holding on?

It doesn’t affect me. I’m not a method director. (laugh)

Directing the first episode of Grotesquerie, you were obviously very involved in establishing the aesthetic of the show. But you also directed the episodes where, in order not to spoil anything, the narrative and visuals change. It provided an opportunity to modify, if not resetappearance. How did you approach this?

Subtle. None of us wanted people to fall in love with the look of a show for the first seven episodes and then suddenly this will be completely different. It seemed too risky. Layout changes, camera movements and lighting were very subtle in the interest of not alienating anyone who was really enjoying that part of the ride. But we approached the story in a way that created all these little crumbs that you can’t turn around and see. Ryan had a clear vision for the entire season and episode seven from the very beginning. So we were able to plan all of this. And our inspiration for the look was somewhere between David Lynch and Chinatown. I mean: really, really damn.

Returning to monsterswhat do you think about all this? DEVELOPMENTS in the case of the Menendez brothers? There is a scenario where their sentences could be commuted within months of this show airing.

It’s incredible and I think it’s because of the show. The American criminal system is deeply, deeply flawed, and this is a testament to Ryan’s impact on the culture. Whatever one’s problems with the show, this is absolutely wild. Obviously, there have been movements to (get him out of jail), but I’m sure what’s happening now is also directly related to the awareness that this show has brought. And I think 30 years is plenty of time to pay for the mistakes you made when you were young.

Mention the influence of Ryan Murphy. What is the appeal of joining that repertory theatre, apart from the material and the steady work?

It’s really nice to do things that become part of the culture. I didn’t get that with any of the films I made. And it’s really hard for me to spend years on these things and then not be able to deal with the release or who sees it. There’s something incredibly satisfying about putting the same amount of time and care into making something and then knowing you’ll get to talk about it with people in real time—and not bang your head against a wall with a marketing department over a trailer or whatever.

Any particularly frustrating examples of this?

The best thing I think I ever did was a movie I did with Charlie Hunnam, (Jungleland). No one saw it and it crushed me. It made me want to retire. It came out in theaters in the first year of COVID and it was just “damn”. There’s a whole generation of movies that was lost because of it. So for me and Charlie to come back and do this with Ryan and the team is very satisfying for me. Because I know that whatever we do—whether it’s good or not, it’s not my place to say—that I know people will see it.

We’re coming to the end of a year where vibes have been pretty grim in Hollywood. The problems on TV seem particularly clear: shoppers aren’t spending. What do you think is the biggest challenge in making a film right now?

The biggest challenge in getting an independent film off the ground is that financiers won’t finance a film without a cast. And agents, I’ve found, won’t really read scripts unless there’s funding attached. They don’t want to go out on a limb for their actor without a sure thing. It has become a chicken or egg situation and it is impossible. It takes an act of God to make an independent film. Nobody reads scripts. So if you don’t have a pre-existing relationship for an actor, I find it very difficult to do a film. International funding is something else. You end up being forced to choose people who aren’t necessarily right. This isn’t fair to the people you share or the people you don’t share. Suddenly the film doesn’t feel like the filmmakers intended. It’s become this really complicated rat race that makes you lose your mind.

I hate grilling people about the status of announced projects, but I loved Katy Vine’s Texas Monthly piece about the fruit cake embezzlement scandal. You are set to direct the adaptation, Jennifer Garner and Paul Walter Hauser are attached. Will that movie happen?

I hope so. It’s just a house of cards. We’ll have this little window that works for everyone. Then something changes and someone has to make a choice that makes total sense for their career and everything falls apart again. It’s crazy. To get an independent film made today, it takes producers who really live for this shit, just relentless people who aren’t willing to take no for an answer. And you hear “no” so much.